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Discussion Starter · #42 · (Edited)
Well guys the saga continues. We went out last night and took the Kia. We had about an 80 mile trip, 40 each way and on the way to it ran fine but on the way back it exhibited the exact same symptoms. I'm sorry for another longish post. So here is what I see. It set codes for cylinder contribution balance (all cylinders) within around 4-5 drive cycles. No other codes set. There were random misfires on cylinders 3 and 4, very sporadic (like 20-30 per drive cycle of 15 to 20 minutes), not enough to set a misfire code. About 10 minutes into our return trip I felt it bucking and connected my scanner. Still no codes except contribution balance (CB). The fuel system monitor (FSM) read "Closed loop O2 sensors controlling fuel mix". Within a few seconds the MIL light began to flash and the car lost power and the FSM read "Open loop due to system fault". STFT went to 0 and the LTFT was slowly dropping. It ran progressively worse until the LTFT got to 0 also, at which point I could not sustain 55mph without dropping into 4th gear (around 4500rpm) which I didn't want to do so I just continued slowing down. I put the transmission in manual (6th gear) and basically held the accelerator on the floorboard but could not maintain speed.

The A/F sensor (B1S1) was showing very lean (+.5 to +2ma) and the O2 sensor (B1S2) was also very lean solid at .01. I checked the codes and now had a P0420 catalytic system below efficiency along with the CB. I pulled over and shut off and restarted the vehicle. Now my FSM read "Closed loop at least one O2 sensor controlling fuel mix but there is a fault in the feedback system". During this the STFT went up to around +24 but the LTFT never moved from 0. Within about 30 seconds it went open loop again and the STFT also dropped to 0 and it would not maintain speed. I pulled over again and restarted the vehicle 4 more times and the exact process repeated each time. I also now had a P2196 "B1S1 heated O2 sensor stuck rich" even though the scanner data showed the A/F sensor very lean (see above) and the car barely had enough fuel to run. Misfires on cylinder 1 went into the hundreds and on cylinders 3 and 4 into the thousands (5000-7000) cylinder 2 was 0, which I do not understand. So, the 5th time I pulled over I reset the ECM (cleared all trouble codes) and it ran fine the rest of the way home.

So here is my thought. I know monitored systems need a certain number of drive cycles (DC) to "complete". I understand that there are differing numbers for different systems. In other words, some systems need 3 DC while others need 6. Is this indeed true? If so, perhaps the "fault in the feedback system" I'm getting may be when whatever system reaches its number of DC and fails to complete or goes into fault. What I do not understand is why the ECM won't tell me what that fault is. I have no codes for any sensors, except that P2196 but the scan data contradicts that code?!?! Scan data shows all systems normal except the ambient air temp which is still wacky reading 59 last night when it was close to 80. I was reading about a failing camshaft PS and the symptoms are very similar to what I am experiencing. I've replaced the crankshaft PS but not the cams. Could the camshaft PS sensor(s) also be responsible for the CB fault codes I'm getting? Any thoughts are very welcome.

EDIT: When I say above it ran fine the rest of the way home I mean the fuel status went back to "Closed loop O2 sensors controlling fuel mix", the fuel trims returned to normal and the misfires went away. Also, I mentioned in a previous post how it runs good for hours to days after any work I did on it but I think what happened is I cleared the ECM whenever I did work and that's why it ran good. Why does clearing the ECM make it temporarily run good? What's the connection?
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
So I did the test today where you pull the camshaft sensor and backprobe the signal wire and place a heavy metallic object on the sensor tip to knock the 4.8v down to zero. Both sensors responded appropriately. Is that a definitive test or would they still be suspect?
 

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You either have a huge restriction of some sort, a bad a/f sensor or a PCV or purge valve getting all goofy on you. It is hard for me to understand what your scanner is doing with the upstream o2, the a/f sensor. The reading should be in voltage and perfect voltage on that sensor is 1.48v as it is not an o2 sensor but an a/f sensor. Your scanner is interpreting it as an o2 sensor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 · (Edited)
You either have a huge restriction of some sort, a bad a/f sensor or a PCV or purge valve getting all goofy on you. It is hard for me to understand what your scanner is doing with the upstream o2, the a/f sensor. The reading should be in voltage and perfect voltage on that sensor is 1.48v as it is not an o2 sensor but an a/f sensor. Your scanner is interpreting it as an o2 sensor.
Okay, apparently I've been operating under a false assumption. Everything I've researched about O2 sensors puts them into two categories. An actual O2 sensor which uses positive voltage and operates more like a switch for the ECM, "switching" between rich and lean (.9v to .1v). The other is more accurately described as an actual sensor, which they refer to as a Lambda sensor or air/fuel ratio sensor and is able to relay not just whether the system is rich or lean but actually how rich or lean based on a produced current (milliamps), not voltage, which can be either positive or negative with 0 being perfect stoiometric 14.7:1. Negative current would indicate an absence of O2 and therefore be rich and positive current would indicate an excess of O2 and be lean. Based on what you say here your scanner looks for voltage on the Lambda sensor which contradicts this information or perhaps the milliamp signal voltage also varies and some scanners can detect that variation, I simply do not know.

In any event, my scanner shows the behavior of the A/F sensor to be working properly. When you depress the accelerator there is a sudden rush of fuel and the sensor spikes rich then when you release the pedal there is a sudden depletion of fuel and the sensor spikes lean before settling back to around 0 (slightly negative at -.1 to -.3) and then fluctuates up and down consistently. All my research shows that to be "working". My scanner doesn't even have an option for voltage measurement from the Lambda sensor. This adds yet another layer of complexity to an already thus far impossible diagnosis.

You mention a failing A/F sensor as a possibility, which I've replaced and it had no effect on my problem. The old O2 sensor was graphing exactly like the new one. You mentioned restriction but can a physical restriction "clear up" when you reset the ECM? When running good the car has no problem revving to 6k and scats like a scalded dog. Is there such a thing as an intermittent blockage? You also mention a purge valve or PCV valve as possibilities. I've replaced the PCV valve but have not really looked into the purge valve possibility. Does the ECM purge the evap canister every drive cycle? When you clear all codes on the ECM does the purge valve not operate again until a certain number of drive cycles has been performed? This may explain why she runs well for a few hours to days after a code clearing.

If I can believe the data from the O2 sensors, the ECM is adding fuel even though the A/F sensor is slightly rich. It seems on average to be adding around 24% total based on my STFT and LTFT numbers. And, even at that rate of trim, the B1S2 (actual O2 sensor downstream) still goes lean at times while the B1S1 (A/F sensor upstream) displays a fairly tight sawtooth graph showing ever so slightly rich (-.1 to -.3ma). The A/F sensor showing only very slightly rich even though the trims are adding 24% would strongly indicate a vacuum leak or fuel delivery issue, correct? However my fuel rail pressure has always been solid ranging from around 560psi at idle to over 1500psi upon acceleration. Even when it's acting up the fuel pressure seems spot on. That tends to make me lean away from fuel delivery. I suppose it could be a faulty fuel pressure sensor but the readings are so consistent for it to be faulty. Still possible I suppose. That leaves me with a vacuum leak but where?

I've done the carburetor cleaner spray technique, unlit propane torch, disconnected and blocked the PCV hose, purge valve hose, intake flapper hose, brake line hose, hell I even puffed on a cigar and blew the smoke into the intake via the PCV hose, which left a horrible taste in my mouth (literally and figuratively). No sign of a leak. It would have to be a small leak or the MAP sensor would show higher pressure like it does when I disconnect a vacuum line. I'm in the process of building an actual smoke machine so I can apply smoke while carefully inspecting for any leakage. I realize I am posting a lot of information and I certainly understand if you become frustrated and would rather not respond further, I wouldn't blame you at all. If I could walk away from this car I would in a minute. I do want to thank you for all your input. Throughout my several decades on this planet I have not been a close friend of easy, difficult and I however, are on a first name basis. My nightmare continues.
 

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Your car is definitely a tough one especially when we can't be there to see, feel or test. Your testing methods are good and it is just hard to call this. The part time blockage is a possibility based on the cat getting hot, I have replaced many cats on these and some that were just inefficient and others that were clogged up. Most of the time the clogged up ones are really bad, but show similar symptoms to yours except they get so bad the car becomes completely undriveable. I suppose they start off not that bad but by the time people come to see me they are so bad the car barely makes it in the building or I only get a couple of blocks down the road when it will barely move.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Your car is definitely a tough one especially when we can't be there to see, feel or test. Your testing methods are good and it is just hard to call this. The part time blockage is a possibility based on the cat getting hot, I have replaced many cats on these and some that were just inefficient and others that were clogged up. Most of the time the clogged up ones are really bad, but show similar symptoms to yours except they get so bad the car becomes completely undriveable. I suppose they start off not that bad but by the time people come to see me they are so bad the car barely makes it in the building or I only get a couple of blocks down the road when it will barely move.
If you had my car and you only made it a couple of blocks before it became unresponsive you could simply pull over, shut it off, clear the codes, restart and it would run great back to the shop. That's what makes this so difficult, nothing is consistent and everything is contradictory. How plausible is this thought, if the cat is partially blocked causing the contribution balance issue could the computer go open loop after a certain number of contribution faults or cylinder misfires and not revert back until the codes were cleared? If there is a small amount of back pressure at the cat perhaps that is causing the A/F sensor to read rich and causing the MAP sensor to read higher fooling the ECM into thinking ther car needs more fuel. No, if that were true the car would show signs of running rich and other than the A/F sensor, it does not. In fact, when the car goes open loop and removes the fuel trims it literally starves for fuel. The A/F sensor and the O2 sensor go way lean and the misfires go way, way up. Grasping at straws. If I had a dollar for every time someone said to me "gee, I,ve never seen that before" or "wow, that's really a tough one" I could drive the car into the river and go by a new Rolls Royce as I would be a multimillionaire.:LOL:. I'll inform the forum of any progress. Thanks again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
So took the Soul out yesterday afternoon and except for the LTFT being +23, the occasional spike lean on the O2 sensor and the MIL for contribution balance, it ran perfect. One thing I did notice however, while watching the live data is that the MAP pressure did not seem commensurate with the amount of accelerator pedal I was using. What I mean is if I depressed the pedal only slightly, say less than 25%, the MAP pressure was 13-14psi. I know 14.6 is full throttle (atmosphere) and 13.5 to 14 seems like little vacuum when only at 25% or so throttle. Of course there weren't a lot of RPMs either as the tranny was shifting at around 2500 through all the gears so maybe that's normal? The search continues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Another puzzle piece today. The car had been running fine until last night. What I now know is it runs good until all drive cycle items complete then it immediately goes open loop and I get a P2196 (heated O2 sensor stuck rich). It takes away the fuel trims and the car starves for fuel. There are a few drive cycle items that take a while to complete. I don't know if I remember them all but these I remember. I see Heated oxygen sensor Available/Not completed, EGR System Available/Not completed, Oxygen sensor Available/Not completed and Evaporative system Available/Not completed. When some or all of those complete it immediately goes into open loop, removes fuel trims and runs horribly. Today I am going to try and see if I can monitor to see if one particular item actually causes the open loop condition. Wish me luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 · (Edited)
So within 15-20 seconds of the heated oxygen sensor monitor completing the car went open loop, set the P2196 code and the STFT and LTFT started dropping and it ran progressively worse until they reached 0, by then it would barely move. The Oxygen sensor, Evaporative system and EGR system still showed available/not completed. So, just for grins and giggles, I tried unplugging the A/F sensor and took a test drive. The car ran similarly to when it acts up and it never illuminated the MIL, which confused me. Does the oxygen sensor monitor need to complete before it sets a code?

EDIT Nevermind....Just took the car out to the store to get a few things. The Heated Oxygen Sensor monitor completed and I expected it to go open loop and lose all fuel trims but....nope, it ran like a swiss watch. There is no rhyme or reason to this that I can find....the search continues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
I'm still battling this Soul and here is my latest thought. Can anyone verify this hypothesis. If I have one or more failing/clogged injectors those cylinders are not getting enough fuel so the ECU boosts the fuel trims to compensate. However, the remaining cylinders are not blocked and are therefore spraying too much fuel relative to their air input. The result "looks good" to the A/F sensor since the lean cylinders and the rich cylinders are balancing out the exhaust gas percentages when in actuality one or two cylinders are running lean and some are running too rich. This could cause my misfires on cylinders 3 and 4 and the contribution balance on all cylinders since 3 and 4 are running too rich, misfiring and not fully contributing and 1 and 2 are too lean and not fully contributing. It would also explain why spark plugs 1 and 2 seem clean while 3 is somewhat sooty and 4 is mostly sooty. If this is a valid theory then the issue becomes either one or more injectors are failing/partially blocked. The only problem with this is that early on in this process I removed all injectors, cleaned them and swapped them around so the sooty problem should have moved to a new position. It did not. So that suggests fuel delivery. Can a fuel rail become clogged? Say between cylinders 2 and 3 such that 3 and 4 are getting more fuel and 1 and 2 are getting less? I know I'm grasping at straws.
 

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Catalytic converter would be my best guess. Do you have a vacuum gauge? You can test for a restriction by watching manifold vacuum, use the line from the purge valve as it will be the easiest to access.
How exactly did you clean the GDI injectors?
Hi bwdz75. I was reading the entire thread and am now officially "Poor Unfortunate Soul #2"
I am having similar issues with 2012 Kia Soul Base 1.6, with 136k miles. Has even compression readings across all 4 cylinders (around 155 psi) and does not consume excessive oil. However, unlike Poor Soul's car, mine does not stall on the road during a trip...Instead, it idles really rough, consistently fouls plug#1 and runs excessively rich. I replaced all the spark plugs with OEM NGK, swapped the coils around, and finally installed all new injectors, but the same problem recurs each time. I changed the upstream AF sensor twice, now using an NTK sensor, but no improvement. The intake manifold vacuum is 10 - 11 psi at idle and 21 psi at 3000 rpm, and doesn't go down when throttle is held steady, indicating the CAT isn't plugged up ???
The MAP sensor reads 21 inHg (10.3 psi) at idle and 10.8 inHg (5.4psi) at 3000 rpm. The idle MAP reading seemed high to me, so I swapped out the MAP, but still have similar readings.
The LTFT was originally at -1.6 but now has improved to -0.8 while the Lambda reading which hovers under 1 in open loop, goes as high as 1.5 during closed loop, showing lean condition and causing injectors to pump excessive fuel. The A/F sensor amperage reading hovers around .70 ma (Ideal reading 1.0) also reading lean and causing more fuel to be injected. These readings are also inconsistent from day to day. I have already cleaned the throttle body and sprayed intake cleaner through one of the ports while engine was running. No sign of any vacuum leaks.
The downstream O2 sensor works normally, reading around .7 volts at initial startup, then drops to .45 volts after warm-up....a near perfect reading. The CAT runs fairly hot due to rich exhaust, ranging from 1161 degrees to around 1350 after a hard run. On the road, the car runs like a scalded dog as well, with plenty of power, cruising easily at 75-80 mph.
I am totally stumped, confused and frustrated.:unsure: Any help would be greatly appreciated :geek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
Hi bwdz75. I was reading the entire thread and am now officially "Poor Unfortunate Soul #2"
I am having similar issues with 2012 Kia Soul Base 1.6, with 136k miles. Has even compression readings across all 4 cylinders (around 155 psi) and does not consume excessive oil. However, unlike Poor Soul's car, mine does not stall on the road during a trip...Instead, it idles really rough, consistently fouls plug#1 and runs excessively rich. I replaced all the spark plugs with OEM NGK, swapped the coils around, and finally installed all new injectors, but the same problem recurs each time. I changed the upstream AF sensor twice, now using an NTK sensor, but no improvement. The intake manifold vacuum is 10 - 11 psi at idle and 21 psi at 3000 rpm, and doesn't go down when throttle is held steady, indicating the CAT isn't plugged up ???
The MAP sensor reads 21 inHg (10.3 psi) at idle and 10.8 inHg (5.4psi) at 3000 rpm. The idle MAP reading seemed high to me, so I swapped out the MAP, but still have similar readings.
The LTFT was originally at -1.6 but now has improved to -0.8 while the Lambda reading which hovers under 1 in open loop, goes as high as 1.5 during closed loop, showing lean condition and causing injectors to pump excessive fuel. The A/F sensor amperage reading hovers around .70 ma (Ideal reading 1.0) also reading lean and causing more fuel to be injected. These readings are also inconsistent from day to day. I have already cleaned the throttle body and sprayed intake cleaner through one of the ports while engine was running. No sign of any vacuum leaks.
The downstream O2 sensor works normally, reading around .7 volts at initial startup, then drops to .45 volts after warm-up....a near perfect reading. The CAT runs fairly hot due to rich exhaust, ranging from 1161 degrees to around 1350 after a hard run. On the road, the car runs like a scalded dog as well, with plenty of power, cruising easily at 75-80 mph.
I am totally stumped, confused and frustrated.:unsure: Any help would be greatly appreciated :geek:
I'm sorry to welcome you to the club:(. May I ask if you are getting any codes? I am getting "contribution balance" on all four cylinders so my MIL stays illuminated all the time. I'm not an expert but it seems to me your problem is a vacuum leak. At idle my MAP pressure is around 5.8. Mine goes to 9-10 if I unplug a vacuum hose like PCV or canister purge. If it were me I would check for a leak in the purge valve first. If you unplug the purge vacuum line at the intake manifold and plug it with your finger or something and your MAP drops then there's your problem. I wish you (us) luck.
 

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I'm sorry to welcome you to the club:(. May I ask if you are getting any codes? I am getting "contribution balance" on all four cylinders so my MIL stays illuminated all the time. I'm not an expert but it seems to me your problem is a vacuum leak. At idle my MAP pressure is around 5.8. Mine goes to 9-10 if I unplug a vacuum hose like PCV or canister purge. If it were me I would check for a leak in the purge valve first. If you unplug the purge vacuum line at the intake manifold and plug it with your finger or something and your MAP drops then there's your problem. I wish you (us) luck.
The only consistent MIL I get is P0301 for Cylinder 1 misfire. There's a permanent stored code for P0420 Catalyst below Efficiency, but it hasn't come back during normal driving and the CAT doesn't seem to have excessive back pressure, plus the downstream O2 sensor reads normal. I will look for intake vacuum leaks meanwhile. The idle MAP pressure on you car is 5.8 in psi, correct? My scanner reads the MAP using inHg so I have to convert to psi.
Thanks for the tip.
Your contribution balance code may be due to faulty cam sensors or VVT sensors..... I was recently working on a GMC Terrain that idled terribly and kept throwing P0300 codes. I changed the coils, plugs and cam sensors, all to no avail. Finally I pulled the VVT solenoids and the intake solenoid had one of the screens loose and falling off. I replaced both intake and exhaust solenoids on that GMC, and subsequently engine purred like a contented cat... There were no MIL's on that vehicle for anything related to VVT !!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
The only consistent MIL I get is P0301 for Cylinder 1 misfire. There's a permanent stored code for P0420 Catalyst below Efficiency, but it hasn't come back during normal driving and the CAT doesn't seem to have excessive back pressure, plus the downstream O2 sensor reads normal. I will look for intake vacuum leaks meanwhile. The idle MAP pressure on you car is 5.8 in psi, correct? My scanner reads the MAP using inHg so I have to convert to psi.
Thanks for the tip.
Your contribution balance code may be due to faulty cam sensors or VVT sensors..... I was recently working on a GMC Terrain that idled terribly and kept throwing P0300 codes. I changed the coils, plugs and cam sensors, all to no avail. Finally I pulled the VVT solenoids and the intake solenoid had one of the screens loose and falling off. I replaced both intake and exhaust solenoids on that GMC, and subsequently engine purred like a contented cat... There were no MIL's on that vehicle for anything related to VVT !!!
I also have the catalyst below efficiency code randomly, not consistently, which I find confusing. Yes, my MAP reads vacuum in PSI actually based on atmospheric pressure, so wide open throttle would be 14.7. I have actually replaced my crankshaft sensor but not my camshaft sensors. I was operating under the (perhaps false) assumption that the crankshaft sensor determined contribution/misfires. It would certainly be worth trying the cam sensors as well. I have removed, cleaned and tested my VVT solenoids twice. Granted the "test" was connecting them to 12v and seeing/hearing the action of the plunger so maybe not a totally reliable test. One curious thing I've noticed is that when I am reading live data while driving it seems the MAP is not commensurate with throttle opening. For instance, if my throttle is 25% open the MAP would read like 13psi, which seems too close to wide open throttle. Maybe that's correct, like I said I'm no expert but I will say I now know more about KIAs now than I ever wanted too:sneaky:.
 

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Is your throttle open 25% or is that your accelerator position %? Even at 25% accelerator position when accelerating your throttle plate might be open close to 100% causing the lower vacuum readings you are seeing. These are not carburetors anymore, the PCM can open the throttle plate wide open while mildly accelerating and control with fuel, spark, cam timing, intake runner control etc... You would be surprised if you graph a complete set of data how often the throttle plate is wide open even though you never floored the car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Is your throttle open 25% or is that your accelerator position %? Even at 25% accelerator position when accelerating your throttle plate might be open close to 100% causing the lower vacuum readings you are seeing. These are not carburetors anymore, the PCM can open the throttle plate wide open while mildly accelerating and control with fuel, spark, cam timing, intake runner control etc... You would be surprised if you graph a complete set of data how often the throttle plate is wide open even though you never floored the car.
I thought it was TPS but I could be wrong it may have been APS. Very interesting, I'm sure I would be surprised. I know it's all in an effort to squeeze every mile out of a gallon of gas. And that's the problem with diagnosing these systems, with so many components acting in unison it's really difficult to spot the "guilty party". I've ordered camshaft position sensors to see if there is any effect on the "contribution balance" codes. We'll see.
 

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I also have the catalyst below efficiency code randomly, not consistently, which I find confusing. Yes, my MAP reads vacuum in PSI actually based on atmospheric pressure, so wide open throttle would be 14.7. I have actually replaced my crankshaft sensor but not my camshaft sensors. I was operating under the (perhaps false) assumption that the crankshaft sensor determined contribution/misfires. It would certainly be worth trying the cam sensors as well. I have removed, cleaned and tested my VVT solenoids twice. Granted the "test" was connecting them to 12v and seeing/hearing the action of the plunger so maybe not a totally reliable test. One curious thing I've noticed is that when I am reading live data while driving it seems the MAP is not commensurate with throttle opening. For instance, if my throttle is 25% open the MAP would read like 13psi, which seems too close to wide open throttle. Maybe that's correct, like I said I'm no expert but I will say I now know more about KIAs now than I ever wanted too:sneaky:.
Could be a failing TPS in your case, but hopefully it will turnout to be the VVT solenoids and your headaches will be over. Regarding my car I think I may have found the problem... I found two long hairline cracks on both ends of the plastic intake manifold that seem to expand once the engine gets hotter. Apparently the last !##!! idiot who worked on it used a power ratchet to bolt up the intake and applied too much torque to it.:mad: I'm waiting on a good used intake manifold to arrive and hope to post successful results. Wish me luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Could be a failing TPS in your case, but hopefully it will turnout to be the VVT solenoids and your headaches will be over. Regarding my car I think I may have found the problem... I found two long hairline cracks on both ends of the plastic intake manifold that seem to expand once the engine gets hotter. Apparently the last !##!! idiot who worked on it used a power ratchet to bolt up the intake and applied too much torque to it.:mad: I'm waiting on a good used intake manifold to arrive and hope to post successful results. Wish me luck!
Actually, I've replaced the TPS which means the whole throttle body:(. Good find!! May I ask how you found them? I have suspected a cracked intake or bad gasket but I haven't been able to find either and I've had the intake off multiple times (can't access the injectors without removing it:confused:). Anyway, I've ordered camshaft position sensors so maybe🤞🤞. Good luck to us both!
 

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Actually, I've replaced the TPS which means the whole throttle body:(. Good find!! May I ask how you found them? I have suspected a cracked intake or bad gasket but I haven't been able to find either and I've had the intake off multiple times (can't access the injectors without removing it:confused:). Anyway, I've ordered camshaft position sensors so maybe🤞🤞. Good luck to us both!
I literally drenched the entire intake with brake cleaner spray with engine idling. Turned out that when I soaked either end of the intake, the engine would start to stall. I took off the intake and after cleaning it thoroughly was able able to see two long cracks on both left and right side of the manifold. I was thinking about trying to seal it with epoxy, but I don't want to waste any more time. Lets hope the used manifold I'm getting will be in good shape and will solve the problem. New ones were running around $350 to $400 !
 
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