Kia Soul Forums :: Kia Soul Owners banner
21 - 40 of 65 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
I understand you are trying to read sensors and fuel trims but it is hard for me as that is not necessarily the way they show up on a true factory scanner. I have never seen fuel trims jump like that during deceleration but the cars do go full lean on decel and you can see that on the o2 sensors. The -40 you got when you unplugged the coolant sensor is normal, that is on every make and model out there as a matter of fact, if you unplug the coolant sensor on a Chevy you will get that same exact reading. I don't know what is up with your ambient temp sensor, don't think I have seen one read that high but they are not usually problematic unless they are just broken from impact due to where they are in the front and debris having a chance at them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Didn't read all your posts but did you check your map sensor? Just throwing out thoughts.
Actually I replaced it fairly early on in this adventure. The car ran great when I did for a couple of days and then started acting up again. About 3 weeks ago I reinstalled the old one just to see, it ran good for a day and then acted up again so I put the new one back in. I appreciate all input so please feel free the throw them out 🙂
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I understand you are trying to read sensors and fuel trims but it is hard for me as that is not necessarily the way they show up on a true factory scanner. I have never seen fuel trims jump like that during deceleration but the cars do go full lean on decel and you can see that on the o2 sensors. The -40 you got when you unplugged the coolant sensor is normal, that is on every make and model out there as a matter of fact, if you unplug the coolant sensor on a Chevy you will get that same exact reading. I don't know what is up with your ambient temp sensor, don't think I have seen one read that high but they are not usually problematic unless they are just broken from impact due to where they are in the front and debris having a chance at them.
I understand. I know it is difficult to do remote diagnostics. I used to get calls from my coworkers quite frequently asking me to help them over the phone and it was often very difficult not being able to be "hands on". I appreciate your trying. Yes the car does go "open loop" on deceleration and basically shuts fuel off which is why the +40 on the LTFT is confusing. However, on my scans the O2 sensors seem to "shut off" and read the same as when the car is not running. The B1S1 goes to 0ma ( flat line on graph) and the B1S2 goes flatline at .45v. They seem to "turn back on" when the ECM goes back to closed loop. Anyway, I really appreciate your input. Let me know if anything else comes to mind. I'll be here under the hood :unsure:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
It is a long reach to think the ECM is bad but I have replaced them before, I have replaced exactly 3 ECMs on Kias in my few years at a Kia dealership so it is pretty rare that they go bad but you have been wondering if yours is out of whack. So the back story here is that one of the ECM I replaced is on my own 2016 Soul, it was struck by lightning and fried the ECM, ABS, climate control module along with the alternator and a handful of sensors, not Kia's fault but it does count as a replacement. The other was on a first gen Soul and the capacitor inside shorted out and it would simply pop the fuse. The 3rd one was on an Optima and that is the one that may relate to the issue you are having. The car would just misfire out of nowhere but not consistently. I never took the ECM apart to see what was wrong with it but after eliminating everything I possibly could I would tap on the ECM and it would go haywire. I literally had oscilloscope injector and ignition patterns that would be fine one minute and not the next and tapping with the back of a screwdriver on the body of the ECM would make the ignition go haywire so some internal connection on the coil driver was whacky. The reason I mention this is because your temperature related issues may have something to do with a bad connection that expands and contracts. I was chasing an issue once with a body control module that would act up in the winter on really cold days and I finally just pulled the BCM out and stuck in a freezer (as it would never do it inside the shop) and then plugged it back into the car and it duplicated the problem, sometimes some internal solder or something comes apart or cracks inside and the temperature can make it act up hot or cold.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
It is a long reach to think the ECM is bad but I have replaced them before, I have replaced exactly 3 ECMs on Kias in my few years at a Kia dealership so it is pretty rare that they go bad but you have been wondering if yours is out of whack. So the back story here is that one of the ECM I replaced is on my own 2016 Soul, it was struck by lightning and fried the ECM, ABS, climate control module along with the alternator and a handful of sensors, not Kia's fault but it does count as a replacement. The other was on a first gen Soul and the capacitor inside shorted out and it would simply pop the fuse. The 3rd one was on an Optima and that is the one that may relate to the issue you are having. The car would just misfire out of nowhere but not consistently. I never took the ECM apart to see what was wrong with it but after eliminating everything I possibly could I would tap on the ECM and it would go haywire. I literally had oscilloscope injector and ignition patterns that would be fine one minute and not the next and tapping with the back of a screwdriver on the body of the ECM would make the ignition go haywire so some internal connection on the coil driver was whacky. The reason I mention this is because your temperature related issues may have something to do with a bad connection that expands and contracts. I was chasing an issue once with a body control module that would act up in the winter on really cold days and I finally just pulled the BCM out and stuck in a freezer (as it would never do it inside the shop) and then plugged it back into the car and it duplicated the problem, sometimes some internal solder or something comes apart or cracks inside and the temperature can make it act up hot or cold.
This is very interesting. Today I will use the other end of a screwdriver and see if I can duplicate your experiment. Having dealt with electronics for over 20 years I know how irrational and unpredictable they can be. As you said, my problem seems to come out of nowhere. It runs like a scalded dog one minute and literally like crap the next. It's like that poem there was a little girl.....when she was good she was very very good but when she was bad she was horrid. There have been only a couple of instances out of dozens where it has "cleared up" without shutting the car off and restarting, sometimes more than once, to get it to "reset", for lack of a better word. Now that I think about it it does seem to have performed better in the cooler months. In fact, I once considered the A/C to be the problem because it ran fine when I didn't need to run A/C. And it has gotten worse in the last few weeks and the temps here have been in the upper 80s to low 90s lately (gonna be a hot summer). The thing that keeps pushing me towards the ECM is that I have no codes for anything, nothing to point me anywhere. The only codes I get are non-specific like contribution balance, which stays in all the time and P0300 multiple cylinder misfire along with P03XX for each specific cylinder 1-4. And of course when it misfires so badly I get the P0420, catalyst below efficiency. I have never had a specific code for any sensor, injector or anything else unless I unplugged something during my "troubleshooting". Again, your help is very much appreciated. I'll let you know what happens today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
The good news about the ECM is that they are plug and play if you have to try it. You might get a vin mismatch code but it will run with an ecm from a pull your part junkyard as long as it is the same set up as yours meaning a 2012-2013 1.6 obviously it has to be automatic or manual as the TCM is part of the ECM on the automatic cars.
 

·
Super Moderator
2010 Exclaim
Joined
·
8,265 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
It happens from time to time on posts with lots of text, software kicks it to me to look at.
Sorry, I'll try to be less wordy.
The good news about the ECM is that they are plug and play if you have to try it. You might get a vin mismatch code but it will run with an ecm from a pull your part junkyard as long as it is the same set up as yours meaning a 2012-2013 1.6 obviously it has to be automatic or manual as the TCM is part of the ECM on the automatic cars.
I had wondered about that. I read where it had to be "flashed" by a dealer but I think that is only for chipped key systems. Anyway, after reassembling the intake yesterday I took it for a test drive, ran very well. Today we needed to pick up a few groceries so we took it, ran great. I did do the "wiggle" test as you suggested and nothing evident happened however, I did figure out how to remove individual pins from the plugs so I tightened up the pins to the #4 injector and the #4 coil. I can't really do much until it misbehaves again, which could be next hour or a few days. Very frustrating. I think I will look into the cost of an ECM from the u-pull yard and give that a try. I just have this gut feeling it's the computer, too many unexplained anomalies. Thank you again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
The push button ignition ones have to be neutralized and programmed to the immobilizer the others will run the car and sometimes will set the vin mismatch code and sometimes they won't. Not real sure if you can write a new vin on a used computer as I have never tried it, only on new ones. I have done it on a few other brands and sometimes it involved a few tricks. One thing to keep in mind if you go the used or even new ECM route (they run like $1k) they will need to have the updates installed depending on the car it came from. Not long ago I put a new from Kia ECM in a 2013, the one that kept blowing the fuse, and it was from the year of manufacture and sat in a box for a decade so there was like 4 or 5 updates to get it up to current.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #32 ·
The push button ignition ones have to be neutralized and programmed to the immobilizer the others will run the car and sometimes will set the vin mismatch code and sometimes they won't. Not real sure if you can write a new vin on a used computer as I have never tried it, only on new ones. I have done it on a few other brands and sometimes it involved a few tricks. One thing to keep in mind if you go the used or even new ECM route (they run like $1k) they will need to have the updates installed depending on the car it came from. Not long ago I put a new from Kia ECM in a 2013, the one that kept blowing the fuse, and it was from the year of manufacture and sat in a box for a decade so there was like 4 or 5 updates to get it up to current.
I'm hoping that a recently salvaged Soul would have most updates done, maybe. I'll be looking today. Wish me luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Couple of questions. During the trip yesterday my MIL came back on with my usual contribution balance on all cylinders but there was also another P0137 (heated sensor low voltage B1S2). This sensor constantly fluctuates between lean and rich but it mostly reads lean (.2 to .01), it does occasionally bounce to .7 (which is a little rich) and sometimes stays at .7 for a short periods (several seconds to a minute) before spiking back down below .3 and then back to .7. I read that this code will be set if the computer sees a consistently low voltage for over 20 seconds, is that correct? If so the P0137 is easily explainable by the fact that the sensor reads lean most of the time and must have failed to spike (to .7) for over 20 seconds. This sensor really is all over the place while the B1S1 is much more consistent. I wish I understood this contribution balance code. I suppose running lean the engine may not be combusting with the usual oomphh it should be and the ECM, by way of the CPS, sees that as not contributing sufficiently. Plausible? I know I'm asking a lot but I've found the only way to know why something does not work is to first understand how it does work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
Couple of questions. During the trip yesterday my MIL came back on with my usual contribution balance on all cylinders but there was also another P0137 (heated sensor low voltage B1S2). This sensor constantly fluctuates between lean and rich but it mostly reads lean (.2 to .01), it does occasionally bounce to .7 (which is a little rich) and sometimes stays at .7 for a short periods (several seconds to a minute) before spiking back down below .3 and then back to .7. I read that this code will be set if the computer sees a consistently low voltage for over 20 seconds, is that correct? If so the P0137 is easily explainable by the fact that the sensor reads lean most of the time and must have failed to spike (to .7) for over 20 seconds. This sensor really is all over the place while the B1S1 is much more consistent. I wish I understood this contribution balance code. I suppose running lean the engine may not be combusting with the usual oomphh it should be and the ECM, by way of the CPS, sees that as not contributing sufficiently. Plausible? I know I'm asking a lot but I've found the only way to know why something does not work is to first understand how it does work.
If I have a new cat and a good sensor 0.7 is exactly what I want to see and it should stay steady if the cat is good. Of course it will bounce until the cat is hot so after idling or driving for a few minutes on a graph it should be a steady line. When driving normal that 0.7 should be almost a dead straight smooth line with it dropping into the zero range for a second or two when letting off the gas and decelerating but should bounce right back up to 0.7 on a good cat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #37 ·
If I have a new cat and a good sensor 0.7 is exactly what I want to see and it should stay steady if the cat is good. Of course it will bounce until the cat is hot so after idling or driving for a few minutes on a graph it should be a steady line. When driving normal that 0.7 should be almost a dead straight smooth line with it dropping into the zero range for a second or two when letting off the gas and decelerating but should bounce right back up to 0.7 on a good cat.
Yeah the downstream does go steady at .7 for brief periods but then it sawwtooths and sometimes, when it's running poorly it goes steady at .01. However, if I understand correctly that shouldn't affect how the car runs just the emissions, correct? So the pattern is work perfect (.7) for say 5-10 seconds then sawtooth wildly then back to steady (.7) with spikes down to .2 or thereabouts every other second then steady at .7 for several seconds then....lather, rinse, repeat, not necessarily in that order. Can a failing cat behave that way? I've found an ECM that matches my part number exactly 39110-2BCG5 however some of the other numbers do not match (like mine says 9003120074KJ the other one ends KI) , is that a problem?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
So I'm picking up the ECM today. I really hope this does the trick although I know it's a longshot. I would think it's a good idea to disconnect the battery when removing/installing. Any other tips or cautions to be aware of?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,313 Posts
So I'm picking up the ECM today. I really hope this does the trick although I know it's a longshot. I would think it's a good idea to disconnect the battery when removing/installing. Any other tips or cautions to be aware of?
Yes, disconnect battery. Be careful when reinstalling harness, make sure you connect it properly. After disconnecting battery, turn on headlight switch to bleed any remaining current in system. Then turn off switch after a couple minutes. If harness to computer has a bolt in it don't over tighten it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
Yeah you will want to disconnect the battery, actually remove it out of the way. Be careful on the connectors, do not bend a pin or break the locking tab. You push on the tab and then start pulling on the plastic lever which will make the connector start rising, don't overdo it, just help it up if it is hard to push the release lever. Same on the way back down, makes sure it is dead straight on and lock it in lightly till it clicks the lever into the locking tab.
 
21 - 40 of 65 Posts
Top