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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I verified the alloy wheel option on the 2014 base model will again only be available in the automatic transmission. Bummer.

Said it before, will repeat: The base MT 2014 will be the poster child for the "affordable Soul" marketing angle, and everything from there upward is going to cost quite a bit more. I fully expect to see most of the base AT's to come with alloy wheel upgrades and other things. The people who are mostly price-sensitive will stay to the MT, and the leap in price will start from there. Most dealers will likely elect to stock the AT w/alloy wheels (and more options), and from there it goes into the Plus (+) trim where there is no more MT - means there will be yet another gap-up in price.

Taking the $800 delivery fee into consideration:
- Base MT with minimal options (floor mats and a few other small things) will MSRP near $16K and up.
- Base AT w/alloy wheels and minimal options will MSRP approaching $18K and up.
- Plus AT with minimal options will MSRP $20K and up.

Etc....

Tack on about $2000 more for dealer fees, tax and title/tag, etc to figure the out the door pricing.

$20K - $25K will be the typical final cost range for all but the Base MT.

Sonic
 

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According to all I know here in Kentuck, Plus stripped is 18200, plus 795 shipping, plus 1240 titling fees and taxes, plus 500 in options comes to 20,334 out the door. Before you say anything else about dealers fees, I don't pay them as a separate line item. Quite simply put if a dealer insists on adding prep or dealer handling fees as a separate line item to the auto, I walk. I refuse to even consider them because it is greed and avarice that put them there. I have not paid any such fees on the cars I have now. I also refuse to deal with dealer add on stickers for useless stuff.

I talk to my salesman about this right up front and mine has told me that they put that on there because there are people that pay all that without haggling. Really, I say? As soon as I tell them that is a non starter, thank them and turn toward my car to leave, all that crap comes off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
According to all I know here in Kentuck, Plus stripped is 18200, plus 795 shipping, plus 1240 titling fees and taxes, plus 500 in options comes to 20,334 out the door. Before you say anything else about dealers fees, I don't pay them as a separate line item. Quite simply put if a dealer insists on adding prep or dealer handling fees as a separate line item to the auto, I walk. I refuse to even consider them because it is greed and avarice that put them there. I have not paid any such fees on the cars I have now. I also refuse to deal with dealer add on stickers for useless stuff.

I talk to my salesman about this right up front and mine has told me that they put that on there because there are people that pay all that without haggling. Really, I say? As soon as I tell them that is a non starter, thank them and turn toward my car to leave, all that crap comes off.
You can get away with that approach, to some degree, in rural areas but in big cities that stuff won't often fly. Here in Orlando the dealer will tell you they have no problem selling the cars for asking price PLUS their fees. Actually, they will first tell you the fees are non-negotiable and be really difficult about it. Why? Because they can. The dealers are often a monopoly here all owned by the same core entity, so they know if you want to buy a car elsewhere then you really need to travel a few hours round trip to do so. Also, they know people are stupid and lazy now days. So while some car buyers are smart, let's say for argument sake 20% of the population, that still leaves 80% who are ignorant or lazy and will pay the fees. The dealers here know this, and the whole monopoly is set up with that in mind. So, just because you may be smart doesn't mean it will get you anywhere, the dealer will gladly let you walk because there's a dozen zombies behind you who will buy the car within a few weeks (tops, if that long). Now, having said that, the dealers are more inclined to bargain a bit with their big "fees" in place, that is part of the reason they put them there to being with - the consumer has more access to knowing actual invoice these days, so the dealer uses the fees to counter-balance and let the customer still feel like they got a good deal. Even so, you won't typically be able to bargain away anything equal to the full dealer (and doc prep) fees in most instances, at least not on cheaper foreign cars like the Soul, there just isn't enough profit margin.

Also, I am always curious when I hear about the "deals" people got what EXACTLY they constitute. Because the only deal that really matters for comparison purposes is a CASH deal - and very few people make those. Which means the "deal" is convoluted at best because it involves financing or trade-ins or some rebate/discount (military, college, etc). You can't compare any of those scenarios to each other, too many variables. If you get taken on your trade then you need to re-apply that to your "deal" for the car. And you also can't compare a negotiated deal to a discounted deal because the manufacturer usually picks up the tab on a discounted deal, not the dealer. Same goes for financing that might give a discount for the finance business, but offset with a higher rate. So you can't compare the "out the door price" because you need to tack on all the interest over the years you will be shelling out - you cannot compare that to a cash deal.

Dealers, especially around here, usually HATE cash deals. Leaves them little room to screw around with shell games. Around here they would prefer you just walk away unless you are willing to pay near sticker price, or unless it is month-end and they are right on the edge of making their quota and desperately need that "one more car sale". Not common.

Again, too many variables. The only way to compare directly apples-n-apples is typically with a CASH DEAL.

Sonic
 

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Mine were cash deals. For the base, I went in with a deal I could accept. The base had NO options on it other than it was the AT, so all that stuff was there on it. The dealer had a mark up sticker on it of 4K but had only added a couple of hundred dollars worth of stuff, not much really. I told the salesman (first time I had actually met him but he was a friend of my daughter) that I would only deal with MSRP sticker and he said fine. I also told him not to bring out anyone else to talk to me cause that would queer the deal, he didn't.

I gave him my numbers and he disappeared into the back for a few minutes. He came out with the sales agreement all done up and out the door price was 17.7, just exactly what I had on the paper. That was with delivery, taxes (6% here) and Title/Registration stuff. This was when the Souls were flying off the lot and there was very little inventory. In fact, the car I bought had just rolled off the truck, I did the same with the Exclaim. I researched all the data I could find on the price, did my research and offered the dealer a fair deal. I allowed for profit, etc.

As for letting me walk, I have had dealers that let me walk and we have not had any dealings. That is their prerogative, just as it is mine not to deal with them. I refuse to pay for anything marked up over MSRP (other than tax and title) and if that is what they want to do, then they can do it with some one else, that is their business, not mine. And while Louisville is not that large of a city, it is in the top thirty for size in the US.
 

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A couple of thoughts. First off, in California dealers are prohibited from charging $300 to $500 doc fees. Chalk one up for the consumer. Secondly, what happens when you live someplace where there is only ONE dealer? Try walking out on them and you can't get a car unless you are willing to ship one in from some place and the shipping more than makes up for their doc fees. Point being it's not always possible to just blow dealers off without considering the alternatives very carefully.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
That's a good deal in my opinion for a base AT - 17.7 out the door. That was with no other incentives, programs or rebates, correct? What year, 2013?

Regional marketing fee is the other variable. Can range from zero to $250 or more, so that affects what the dealer can sell the cars for as well.

Interestingly, relative to dealer actual invoice, that price you paid is almost an identical ratio to what I paid for my +. However, I got there an entirely different way - necessary to counteract the ridiculous fees. Florida, and Orlando in particular, is ranked as near the top in terms of the worse fees and taking advantage of customers. Seriously, if they could saw this state off from the rest of the country we'd all be the better for it. lol
 

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A couple of thoughts. First off, in California dealers are prohibited from charging $300 to $500 doc fees. Chalk one up for the consumer. Secondly, what happens when you live someplace where there is only ONE dealer? Try walking out on them and you can't get a car unless you are willing to ship one in from some place and the shipping more than makes up for their doc fees. Point being it's not always possible to just blow dealers off without considering the alternatives very carefully.
That is true, you may not have an alternative and if that is the case (as has happened to me) then you may be SOL. You have to make the decision. As for me, I walk, I will find a way to get what I want how I want it. Now if I were a total butt head about pricing I would insist that the dealer take a loss, I don't do that. I offer what I believe to be a fair price according to the research that I can find. I don't like to haggle and to avoid that I generally try to offer something that allows the dealer some profit. But I also know that most large dealers in large metro areas get volume kick backs from the manufacturers often referred to as preferred dealer incentives. So going to a small, independent dealer in a rural setting is asking for trouble. You will be serenaded by all the sob stories about how a lonely little out of the way place has to charge more in order to stay in business. I don't buy it and I won't pay it. I can always just keep what I have.

In short I buy a car much the same way I buy a load of bread. If I can't get the loaf of bread, then I know I face the risk that I might go hungry.
 

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I'm totally on board with getting the best deal and taking whatever steps necessary to do that - with or without a dealer being involved. My MO is to try and find low mileage, one owner private party deals. It avoids sales tax (not in California so I guess that makes up for the doc fees, eh?). The great thing buying from the original owner is that they take the brunt of the depreciation hit and if they and you take good care of the vehicle, you can get close to what you paid for it should you want to move to something else. The negative is that when a new model like the 2014 comes out, you have to wait until people start wanting to sell them and that could be a while. On the other hand trading the one you got from the original owner can save you sales tax on the new one in many states, so that could be a bonus and you could end up getting back the value of what you paid for it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
My MO is to try and find low mileage, one owner private party deals. The great thing buying from the original owner is that they take the brunt of the depreciation hit and if they and you take good care of the vehicle, you can get close to what you paid for it should you want to move to something else.
This USED to always be my approach, but not any more. Not by choice, but due to no other alternative but to buy new. The zombies here in Florida are so brain-dead that the vast majority of them get taken at the Stealerships and end up so upside-down that it is not realistically possible to find a fair deal on a well-kept, used vehicle. The zombies refuse to take a loss because they simply CAN'T, they are too far in debt, living paycheck to paycheck and can't manage their money. They list their cars and try to offload their financial quandry onto the BUYER. Unreal. You can look them right in their single-digit-IQ zombie-eyes and explain (and show) how what they are asking is utterly absurd, and yet they will retort "I can't I owe more than that" as if that is some kind of justified excuse. Sad part is, if they wait long enough, another zombie will come along and actually pay that ludicrous price!!

Many used 2012 and 2013 Soul's around here are selling for MORE than what I paid NEW. That's how pathetic the situation has become around these parts for used vehicles. And it is getting really difficult to find any well-kept used vehicles anyway. Zombies don't tend to take good care of the cars.

I expect to see the later-year Gen1 Soul + and ! (meaning 2012 and 2013) to hold up well on price valuation going forward due the sizable increase in prices that are about to come with the Gen2 series.
 

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That's a good deal in my opinion for a base AT - 17.7 out the door. That was with no other incentives, programs or rebates, correct? What year, 2013?
2012. No other incentives were available at the time other than some deal on interest rates and leasing options, neither of which I used. This car will be driven until ..., well for as long as it holds out. So far, the only expenses really suffered have been routine maintenance, the few things that have failed (most notably the fuel tank sensor) have been covered by warranty. As for depreciation, the used Souls are still selling for more than the new ones around here for the later models (2012 used versus 2013 new).
 

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Sonic has some good points. The used car market, for a lot of factors, is so hot now that used cars sometimes sell for more than new ones. I had my credit union value my base MT Soul and they told me fair market value with 12k miles on it was a little over $15k - I only paid a little under $14k for it! And yeah, there are a lot of upside-down zombies out there, which makes it very hard to find a good used car because someone has to pay the difference on the loan, and usually the guy/gal selling the car has fifty cents to their name.

As for prices, I think I did pretty well on both my Souls. I bought a base model 2012 automatic for my wife, when they were flying off the shelf, and with a couple of little things tossed in I paid just under $17k "out the door" (tax was about a grand). On my 2013 base model MT, with a few knick-knacks, I paid just under $15k "out the door" - just under $14k to the dealer plus a little less than a grand for taxes. Both were cash deals, though on the MT I took the Kia financing for 60 days to get a $500 rebate, then paid it off. The interest rate was something ridiculously low, so I paid about $30 in interest before getting rid of the Kia loan.

So I bought 2 brand new cars for less than $32k "out the door". Not too shabby. As a side bonus, Kia has been paying me back for buying both of these cars, thanks to the fuel economy fiasco, and so I've received back close to $1000 so far. Eventually, both of these cars will be free :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Ah, 2012, that explains it. Weren't those about $300-$400 less than 2013? $17.7k OTD is still a great price, but it now makes more sense.....that price on a 2013 would be really stretching it right to the point of a dealer loss (so to speak).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
OMG....Granted, I am probably a bit late to the game catching this fact, but I just saw that not only is the 2014 Soul+ only available in automatic transmission now, you have to also buy a $1400 option package just to get the following that was already included in the 2013! ....

- Center/Armrests, Leather-Wrapped Steering Wheel & Gear Shift Knob, SiriusXM satellite radio w/3-month complimentary subscription, Bluetooth wireless technology w/steering wheel-mounted controls, USB/auxiliary input jacks, 6 speakers.

So there is a HUGE jump in price between the base AT and the + model simply to get the same features as was previously offered in 2013. WOW.
 

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Ah, 2012, that explains it. Weren't those about $300-$400 less than 2013? $17.7k OTD is still a great price, but it now makes more sense.....that price on a 2013 would be really stretching it right to the point of a dealer loss (so to speak).
As I have said before, I settle on a price before I ever go to a dealer based on whatever my research reveals, along with the USAA stuff. I have to ask myself two questions: Is what I am offering a reasonable deal? And, can I live with the deal? If the answer is yes to both then I proceed. I absolutely HATE being anywhere near a dealership and do not want to haggle. So if I can be satisfied with the deal that I have laid out and the dealer can accept it, then I am good. One thing I don't want to do anymore (and haven't done in quite a long time) is feel badly about a deal that I made for a car. So perhaps I could spend a few more hours there and get another two or three hundred off the price, but it is simply not worth my time and the resulting damage to my well being to do it.

And before I forget, there was a 200 dollar check on the car to the referring person. I listed my daughter as the reference, they sent her a check for 200 which she gave back to me. When she traded up to the new Soul, I got the check and gave it back to her. And so it goes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
OMG....Granted, I am probably a bit late to the game catching this fact, but I just saw that not only is the 2014 Soul+ only available in automatic transmission now, you have to also buy a $1400 option package just to get the following that was already included in the 2013! ....

- Center/Armrests, Leather-Wrapped Steering Wheel & Gear Shift Knob, SiriusXM satellite radio w/3-month complimentary subscription, Bluetooth wireless technology w/steering wheel-mounted controls, USB/auxiliary input jacks, 6 speakers.

So there is a HUGE jump in price between the base AT and the + model simply to get the same features as was previously offered in 2013. WOW.
Wait, it gets worse....going through the KIA site it indicates the above option package is not available until you first buy the UVO package! That's ANOTHER $500. So now with all that plus just floor mats we are talking over $2100 more - for a total of $21.1K. Add on tax, tag, dealer fees or whatever and it's $23K !!! EEEK. Keep in mind that's not even getting into more elaborate options or higher level packages!

BTW, I also noticed the difference in the BASE trim pricing between MT and AT is now $2000, that's another $200 extra over last year.

And lastly, it appears they have completely changed the cargo tray to a plastic or rubber type instead of the previous rubber-backed carpet version with the adjustable dividers. Doesn't appear the to be backward compatible with the pre-2014 years.
 

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I forgot to add that my last few cars I "bought" completely through e-mail and the internet. Meaning all the negotiation was done before I ever set foot on the dealer's lot. When I got there, all I had to do was make sure the car was the car, no damage, sign a few pieces of paper, and drive away. It took me less than an hour on each one of my Souls to sign the papers, do the test drive, and drive away. IMO this is the future of buying cars.
 

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I forgot to add that my last few cars I "bought" completely through e-mail and the internet. Meaning all the negotiation was done before I ever set foot on the dealer's lot. When I got there, all I had to do was make sure the car was the car, no damage, sign a few pieces of paper, and drive away. It took me less than an hour on each one of my Souls to sign the papers, do the test drive, and drive away. IMO this is the future of buying cars.
I can see that, I think I could even do that here. Might be worth a try next time. Thanks.
 

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I can see that, I think I could even do that here. Might be worth a try next time. Thanks.
What I did was decide how far geographically I was willing to go to get the car I wanted at the price I wanted. I then located all the Kia dealers in that geographic location. Sent them each an e-mail telling them what car I was looking for, what I was willing to pay, and that I was ready to buy immediately, didn't need financing, credit approval, etc. Both times I was swamped with e-mails and phone calls - some of them shysters that more or less ignored my e-mail, telling me "Oh, we can't sell that car to you at that price, no one will", and some of them ready and willing to make the deal. It works better if you're not terribly picky on options or colors. For my wife's car, the only mandatory was automatic, and for mine I didn't care but preferred manual (and what I was willing to pay, no one would sell an automatic at that price anyway). It also works better if you don't have to deal with trade ins and either bring cash or your own financing. You make the deal clean and easy, it's hard for any dealer to turn away an easy couple hundred bucks, even if it's not ideal.

Both times I bought the car at exactly what I was willing to pay, and both times I had dealers that didn't want to originally play ball my way - meaning give me the car at that price - call me up while I was driving home in the new Soul saying "OK, we can give it to you at that price", only for me to laugh and tell them "Sorry, too late - I'm driving home in my new Soul, at $X price, from X dealer now".
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
I forgot to add that my last few cars I "bought" completely through e-mail and the internet. Meaning all the negotiation was done before I ever set foot on the dealer's lot. When I got there, all I had to do was make sure the car was the car, no damage, sign a few pieces of paper, and drive away. It took me less than an hour on each one of my Souls to sign the papers, do the test drive, and drive away. IMO this is the future of buying cars.
Absolutely, unfortunately that isn't happening around my area any time soon. The dealers are complete crooks around here when it comes to the "Internet Sales" (at least KIA anyway). Each store has a dedicated name or two that is assigned to be the internet manager/salesman. I mean that literally - one or two names. NAMES. Not necessarily people. And the corruption spins from there. Here's an example: Let's say one dealership has a guy name Joe who is the alleged internet salesman. You call the dealer, and no matter who answers the phone they will literally lie and say the are Joe - no matter who is actually answering the phone. There might not even exist a Joe at all. All the employees know that "Joe" is code name for "this is an internet sale - so prepare for the internet snowjob". The guy will tell you whatever you want to hear (or email you whatever you want to read) and then when you drive to the dealer suddenly "Joe" is unavailable or on vacation or on lunch, etc. So you get some other sales guy who proceeds to tell you that the car you were looking at was sold, or there was a misunderstanding or else there was some kind of confusion that only "Joe" can clear up but in the mean time they will try to sell you whatever they possible can since they baited you onto the lot.

I am not making this crap up, it is dead true. When I got fed up after the 2nd time of this happening at two consecutive dealers, I immediately demanded to see the sales manager. A guy proclaiming to be the sales manager finally walks outside after making me wait for 10 minutes and I politely called his store out by citing the facts of what they did to bait me there, that I'm not and idiot and to knock off the games, and the guy basically tells me to get off the lot and go buy a car someplace else. This is the kind of crap they do here in Central Florida - CORRUPT ZOMBIES WHO FEED OFF THE IGNORANT ZOMBIES. They do NOT want to make honest sales, they only want to rip off customers, and would rather loose business in order to focus on ripping off customers to make more $$, otherwise it is not "worth their time and effort."

SAW THE STATE OF FLORIDA OFF THE MAINLAND PLEASE! lol
 
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